Monday, May 23, 2011

All Argument is a Cuckold and a Whore!


Plato, "Gorgias"
GORGIAS: A marvel, indeed, Socrates, if you only knew how rhetoric comprehends and holds under her sway all the inferior arts. Let me offer you a striking example of this. On several occasions I have been with my brother Herodicus or some other physician to see one of his patients, who would not allow the physician to give him medicine, or apply the knife or hot iron to him; and I have persuaded him to do for me what he would not do for the physician just by the use of rhetoric. And I say that if a rhetorician and a physician were to go to any city, and had there to argue in the Ecclesia or any other assembly as to which of them should be elected state-physician, the physician would have no chance; but he who could speak would be chosen if he wished; and in a contest with a man of any other profession the rhetorician more than any one would have the power of getting himself chosen, for he can speak more persuasively to the multitude than any of them, and on any subject. Such is the nature and power of the art of rhetoric! And yet, Socrates, rhetoric should be used like any other competitive art, not against everybody,—the rhetorician ought not to abuse his strength any more than a pugilist or pancratiast or other master of fence;—because he has powers which are more than a match either for friend or enemy, he ought not therefore to strike, stab, or slay his friends. Suppose a man to have been trained in the palestra and to be a skilful boxer,—he in the fulness of his strength goes and strikes his father or mother or one of his familiars or friends; but that is no reason why the trainers or fencing-masters should be held in detestation or banished from the city;—surely not. For they taught their art for a good purpose, to be used against enemies and evil-doers, in self-defence not in aggression, and others have perverted their instructions, and turned to a bad use their own strength and skill. But not on this account are the teachers bad, neither is the art in fault, or bad in itself; I should rather say that those who make a bad use of the art are to blame. And the same argument holds good of rhetoric; for the rhetorician can speak against all men and upon any subject,—in short, he can persuade the multitude better than any other man of anything which he pleases, but he should not therefore seek to defraud the physician or any other artist of his reputation merely because he has the power; he ought to use rhetoric fairly, as he would also use his athletic powers. And if after having become a rhetorician he makes a bad use of his strength and skill, his instructor surely ought not on that account to be held in detestation or banished. For he was intended by his teacher to make a good use of his instructions, but he abuses them. And therefore he is the person who ought to be held in detestation, banished, and put to death, and not his instructor.

SOCRATES: You, Gorgias, like myself, have had great experience of disputations, and you must have observed, I think, that they do not always terminate in mutual edification, or in the definition by either party of the subjects which they are discussing; but disagreements are apt to arise—somebody says that another has not spoken truly or clearly; and then they get into a passion and begin to quarrel, both parties conceiving that their opponents are arguing from personal feeling only and jealousy of themselves, not from any interest in the question at issue. And sometimes they will go on abusing one another until the company at last are quite vexed at themselves for ever listening to such fellows. Why do I say this? Why, because I cannot help feeling that you are now saying what is not quite consistent or accordant with what you were saying at first about rhetoric. And I am afraid to point this out to you, lest you should think that I have some animosity against you, and that I speak, not for the sake of discovering the truth, but from jealousy of you. Now if you are one of my sort, I should like to cross-examine you, but if not I will let you alone. And what is my sort? you will ask. I am one of those who are very willing to be refuted if I say anything which is not true, and very willing to refute any one else who says what is not true, and quite as ready to be refuted as to refute; for I hold that this is the greater gain of the two, just as the gain is greater of being cured of a very great evil than of curing another. For I imagine that there is no evil which a man can endure so great as an erroneous opinion about the matters of which we are speaking; and if you claim to be one of my sort, let us have the discussion out, but if you would rather have done, no matter;—let us make an end of it.

12 comments:

nicrap said...

...let me go a step further and say: All meaning is a cuckold and a whore!

Thersites said...

How so? She charges so little and grants such pleasure. A slut perhaps, but seldom a whore.

Although I am certainly made the cuckold if and when I give my arguments away. ;)

Thersites said...

I suppose that others pay dearly for listening to or agreeing with me... but then, that supports the former argument. ;)

Thersites said...

It's only if you take my meaning that the argument becomes a cuckold AND a whore. ;)

nicrap said...

How so? She charges so little and grants such pleasure.

...first of all, excuse me if i seem to be lacking in effort ... or if my effort seem to be lacking which is the same thing.

Having said that, I understand whore here as someone who doesn't "belong" to you, you may enjoy her for a while but you never own her. Meaning is a whore in this sense, that it's in your grasp at one moment and then gone. I cannot put it better than this:

Sometimes for a minute or two I saw it clearly, threading my life like a divine and golden track. But nearly always it was blurred in dirt and dust. Then again it gleamed out in golden sparks as though never to be lost again and yet was lost soon once more … (Hesse. Steppenwolf.)

nicrap said...

...I think it was in Jen's blog that I saw a comment: "Keep dancing ... just not in circles over and over again." But that's exactly how we dance, round and round and round... some never realize it and think they might reach somewhere - they never do, and yet they may be the lucky ones; some realize it and see nothing but pathos in it; some ... some just do what they have to do, in spite of it. :)

(...the categories are not a very good description, but ... no matter.)

Thersites said...

...and I suppose I interpret the word as "pleasure you gain from another and that comes with a cost"... you can either "pay" her now (by resisting the thought and arguing against her) or "pay" her later (having adopted the thought and having to re-think things when things disappointedly don't work out as expected). Either way, you'll "pay".

But it's those thoughts/meanings that come to you easily and perk their way up through the swamp of your subconscious... these sluttish nymphs from the springs who always give away their pleasures and kidnap your unguarded thoughts from within, much as they captured Hylas, these meanings one doesn't resist...

Thersites said...

But we don't dance in complete circles because we're always in a different ballroom. The forms remain the same but the colours change... ;)

Thersites said...

...which obscure (shade) and/or reveal (illuminate) the underlying meaning.

nicrap said...

Socrates summed up my feelings when I read certain blogs. (not yours)

The ridiculous back and forth that never amounts to any gain...it's lost on me.


...and yet, there has been a lot of this ... sparring ... between FJ and I. So I think a word is in order here, from either FJ or me. Want a try, FJ? :)

nicrap said...

Sorry, i didn't see your comments. I will be back... :)

Thersites said...
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